diff --git a/roles/kolibri/defaults/main.yml b/roles/kolibri/defaults/main.yml
index 80eb0c352..9653af73e 100644
--- a/roles/kolibri/defaults/main.yml
+++ b/roles/kolibri/defaults/main.yml
@@ -61,3 +61,5 @@ kolibri_admin_password: changeme
 
 # Kolibri Preset type: formal, nonformal, informal
 kolibri_preset: formal
+
+kolibri_venv_path: /usr/local/kolibri
diff --git a/roles/kolibri/tasks/install.yml b/roles/kolibri/tasks/install.yml
index d95f36044..0d7887207 100644
--- a/roles/kolibri/tasks/install.yml
+++ b/roles/kolibri/tasks/install.yml
@@ -61,6 +61,35 @@
     content: 'KOLIBRI_HOME="{{ kolibri_home }}"'
     dest: /etc/kolibri/daemon.conf
 
+- name: Using PIP method
+  include_tasks: pip-install.yml
+  when: kolibri_version_pip is defined
+
+- block:
+  # handles going from pip to deb installs during --reinstall
+  - name: Test for {{ kolibri_exec_path }}
+    ansible.builtin.stat:
+      path: "{{ kolibri_exec_path }}"
+    register: sym
+
+  - name: Remove if {{ kolibri_exec_path }} is a symlink
+    file:
+      state: absent
+      path: "{{ kolibri_exec_path }}"
+    when: sym.stat.islnk is defined and sym.stat.islnk
+
+  # should not get here if the deb was uninstalled in pip-install.yml
+  - name: Remove kolibre deb if installed
+    apt:
+      name: kolibri
+      state: "absent"
+    when: sym.stat.islnk is defined and sym.stat.islnk
+  # end test
+
+  - name: Remove virtual environment {{ kolibri_venv_path }} if present
+    file:
+      path: "{{ kolibri_venv_path }}"
+      state: absent
 
 # https://kolibri.readthedocs.io/en/latest/install/ubuntu-debian.html claims:
 # "When you use the PPA installation method, upgrades to newer versions
@@ -71,17 +100,17 @@
 # https://github.com/learningequality/kolibri-installer-debian/pull/117
 
 # 2022-08-31: keyring /etc/apt/trusted.gpg DEPRECATED as detailed on #3343
-- name: Download Kolibri's apt key to /usr/share/keyrings/learningequality-kolibri.gpg
-  shell: |
-    gpg --keyserver hkp://keyserver.ubuntu.com:80 --recv-keys DC5BAA93F9E4AE4F0411F97C74F88ADB3194DD81
-    gpg --yes --output /usr/share/keyrings/learningequality-kolibri.gpg --export DC5BAA93F9E4AE4F0411F97C74F88ADB3194DD81
+  - name: Download Kolibri's apt key to /usr/share/keyrings/learningequality-kolibri.gpg
+    shell: |
+      gpg --keyserver hkp://keyserver.ubuntu.com:80 --recv-keys DC5BAA93F9E4AE4F0411F97C74F88ADB3194DD81
+      gpg --yes --output /usr/share/keyrings/learningequality-kolibri.gpg --export DC5BAA93F9E4AE4F0411F97C74F88ADB3194DD81
 
 # 2024-06-25: Strongly consider PPA "kolibri-proposed" in future...
 # https://github.com/learningequality/kolibri/issues/11892
 # https://kolibri.readthedocs.io/en/latest/install/ubuntu-debian.html
-- name: Add signed Kolibri PPA 'jammy'
-  apt_repository:
-    repo: "deb [signed-by=/usr/share/keyrings/learningequality-kolibri.gpg] http://ppa.launchpad.net/learningequality/kolibri/ubuntu jammy main"
+  - name: Add signed Kolibri PPA 'jammy'
+    apt_repository:
+      repo: "deb [signed-by=/usr/share/keyrings/learningequality-kolibri.gpg] http://ppa.launchpad.net/learningequality/kolibri/ubuntu jammy main"
 #   when: is_ubuntu and os_ver is version('ubuntu-2204', '>=') or is_linuxmint_21 or is_debian_12
 #   #when: is_ubuntu_2204 or is_ubuntu_2210 or is_debian_12    # MINT 21 COVERED BY is_ubuntu_2204
 
@@ -124,6 +153,12 @@
 #     codename: focal    # UPDATE THIS TO 'jammy' AFTER "RasPiOS Bookworm" (based on Debian 12) IS RELEASED! (ETA Q3 2023)
 #   when: is_debian or is_linuxmint_20
 
+# Needs discussiion
+# --reinstalls should work uninstall then install
+# - name: Remove kolibre deb if installed
+#   apt:
+#     name: kolibri
+#     state: "absent"
 
 # 2024-08-07: Hack no longer needed!  As Kolibri 0.17.0 now installs via "kolibri" PPA (https://launchpad.net/~learningequality/+archive/ubuntu/kolibri).
 # Hopefully "kolibri-proposed" PPA will install 0.18 pre-releases soon, on Python 3.13 too!  https://github.com/learningequality/kolibri/issues/11892
@@ -133,27 +168,29 @@
 #     kolibri_deb_url: https://github.com/learningequality/kolibri/releases/download/v0.17.0/kolibri_0.17.0-0ubuntu1_all.deb
 #   when: python_version is version('3.12', '>=')    # For Ubuntu 24.04, Mint 22, pre-releases of Ubuntu 24.10, and Debian 13 (even if/when "Trixie" changes from Python 3.12 to 3.13!)  Regarding PPA kolibri-proposed not quite being ready yet, see: learningequality/kolibri#11316 -> learningequality/kolibri#11892
 
-- name: apt install kolibri (using apt source specified above, if kolibri_deb_url ISN'T defined)
-  apt:
-    name: kolibri
-  when: kolibri_deb_url is undefined
+  - name: apt install kolibri (using apt source specified above, if kolibri_deb_url ISN'T defined)
+    apt:
+      name: kolibri
+    when: kolibri_deb_url is undefined
   # environment:
   #   KOLIBRI_HOME: "{{ kolibri_home }}"    # 2023-03-27: These don't do a thing
   #   KOLIBRI_USER: "{{ kolibri_user }}"    # for now.
 
-- name: apt install {{ kolibri_deb_url }} (if kolibri_deb_url IS defined)
-  apt:
-    deb: "{{ kolibri_deb_url }}"    # e.g. https://learningequality.org/r/kolibri-deb-latest
-  when: kolibri_deb_url is defined
+  - name: apt install {{ kolibri_deb_url }} (if kolibri_deb_url IS defined)
+    apt:
+      deb: "{{ kolibri_deb_url }}"    # e.g. https://learningequality.org/r/kolibri-deb-latest
+    when: kolibri_deb_url is defined
   # environment:
   #   KOLIBRI_HOME: "{{ kolibri_home }}"    # 2023-03-27: These don't do a thing
   #   KOLIBRI_USER: "{{ kolibri_user }}"    # for now.
 
 
-- name: Run 'rm -rf /root/.kolibri' to remove "unavoidable" pollution created above
-  file:
-    state: absent
-    path: /root/.kolibri
+  - name: Run 'rm -rf /root/.kolibri' to remove "unavoidable" pollution created above
+    file:
+      state: absent
+      path: /root/.kolibri
+# end block
+  when: kolibri_version_pip is undefined
 
 - name: 'Install from template: /etc/systemd/system/kolibri.service'
   template:
diff --git a/roles/kolibri/tasks/main.yml b/roles/kolibri/tasks/main.yml
index 1af098232..9ae375758 100644
--- a/roles/kolibri/tasks/main.yml
+++ b/roles/kolibri/tasks/main.yml
@@ -26,6 +26,11 @@
   #    kolibri_provision: False
   #  when: ???
 
+  - name: Set kolibri_version_pip if
+    set_fact:
+      kolibri_version_pip: 0.17.5
+    when: (is_debian_13 or is_ubuntu_2504) and kolibri_version_pip is undefined
+
   - name: Install Kolibri, if 'kolibri_installed' not defined, e.g. in {{ iiab_state_file }}    # /etc/iiab/iiab_state.yml
     include_tasks: install.yml
     when: kolibri_installed is undefined
diff --git a/roles/kolibri/tasks/pip-install.yml b/roles/kolibri/tasks/pip-install.yml
new file mode 100644
index 000000000..29594e964
--- /dev/null
+++ b/roles/kolibri/tasks/pip-install.yml
@@ -0,0 +1,66 @@
+- name: Remove kolibri deb if installed
+  apt:
+    name: kolibri
+    state: "absent"
+
+- name: Remove repo if present
+  file:
+    path: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/ppa_launchpad_net_learningequality_kolibri_ubuntu.list
+    state: absent
+
+- name: Remove previous virtual environment {{ kolibri_venv_path }}
+  file:
+    path: "{{ kolibri_venv_path }}"
+    state: absent
+
+# can't hurt but should be called in as a dependency
+- name: Install prep for kolibri when NOT is_debian_13 or is_ubuntu_2504
+  pip:
+    name:
+      - pip
+      - wheel
+      - setuptools
+      - cgi
+    virtualenv: "{{ kolibri_venv_path }}"
+    virtualenv_command: python3 -m venv "{{ kolibri_venv_path }}"
+    extra_args: "--no-cache-dir --prefer-binary"
+  when: not (is_debian_13 or is_ubuntu_2504)
+
+# package name change
+- name: Install prep for kolibri when is_debian_13 or is_ubuntu_2504
+  pip:
+    name:
+      - pip
+      - wheel
+      - setuptools
+      - legacy-cgi
+    virtualenv: "{{ kolibri_venv_path }}"
+    virtualenv_command: python3 -m venv "{{ kolibri_venv_path }}"
+    extra_args: "--no-cache-dir --prefer-binary"
+  when: (is_debian_13 or is_ubuntu_2504)
+
+- name: Install kolibri {{ kolibri_version_pip }} using pip
+  pip:
+    name: kolibri
+    version: "{{ kolibri_version_pip }}"
+    virtualenv: "{{ kolibri_venv_path }}"
+    virtualenv_command: python3 -m venv "{{ kolibri_venv_path }}"
+    extra_args: "--no-cache-dir --prefer-binary --ignore-requires-python"
+  when: kolibri_version_pip_web is undefined
+
+# use kolibri_version_pip_web: https://github.com/learningequality/kolibri/releases/download/<release> and set kolibri_version_pip
+# and not the full path note v0.18.0-alpha1/kolibri-0.18.0a1-py2.py3-none-any.whl
+- name: Install kolibri using {{ kolibri_version_pip_web }}/{{ kolibri_version_pip }}-py2.py3-none-any.whl
+  pip:
+    name: "{{ kolibri_version_pip_web }}/kolibri-{{ kolibri_version_pip }}-py2.py3-none-any.whl"
+    virtualenv: "{{ kolibri_venv_path }}"
+    virtualenv_command: python3 -m venv "{{ kolibri_venv_path }}"
+    extra_args: "--no-cache-dir --prefer-binary --ignore-requires-python"
+  when: kolibri_version_pip_web is defined
+
+- name: Create {{ kolibri_exec_path }} symlink to {{ kolibri_venv_path }}/bin/kolibri
+  file:
+    src: "{{ kolibri_venv_path }}/bin/kolibri"
+    dest: "{{ kolibri_exec_path }}"
+    state: link
+    force: true